Q. Today Mr Goyal, we are going to be talking to you about GST. Now, the GST, the whole idea you know, why you having this big event, big function is that in 1947 political union हुआ था इंडिया का, अब होगा economic union, but what kind of economic union जिसमें half the opposition is boycotting, most of the people are not coming तो unity कहाँ हुई?
A. Where is half the opposition boycotting? Most of the Members of Parliament are going to be there. I would appeal to those who have not decided as yet to set any term, because it’s a decision that has been taken unanimously by all political parties. Even if they are not in government in a state, they have contributed to unanimous approval of constitutional amendment, the laws in different states. And, ultimately all these decisions are taken by the GST Council. So, we are sharing this joy with every political party. It’s unfortunate if somebody chooses not to enjoy the joy of being part of history in the making.
Q.You know, millions of people supported demonetization and even in Uttar Pradesh you got the verdict after the demonetization. But, that time also those who supported you were saying that preparedness was not there, it was missing in the government machinery. Again, we fear that there will be lack of preparedness and people will end up suffering?
A.There has been a transformational reform of this nature where there are so many unknowns, where there is 125 crore Indians as purchasers, where there are, I am told, 5 or 6 crore traders and business persons and manufacturers, of which only 85 lakh come under the tax net, many of the small ones and all are exempt for turnover up to 20 lakhs, many with turnover up to 75 lakhs will have to register, but a very simplified composition scheme has been made. I think it’s something like swimming. You ultimately have to jump into the water before you learn to swim. As much preparation you do standing on the shore, you can’t learn how to swim. So, it’s a thing we will have to get into a lot of preparation, after all, this has been in the making for 10 years, if 10 years के बाद भी हम यह चिंता करें | And the decisions are joint decisions, all parties in the GST Council have decided.

Q.No, that is not a good argument. Because, let me tell you, you are sitting here, babus are sitting here, those who made GST, members, they were all sitting in Delhi in a close room. But now, I will take you to Meerut, just give me one minute and I will tell you that we sent our Rahul Gautam, the correspondent to Meerut and this is day before yesterday. And he met Jasbir Singh who was the garment shop owner, now he says that he has no clue about GST. Then he met Gulshan Arora, he is again a shop owner, he says that he can’t comment on GST. Everybody is waiting for 1^st July?
A.Maybe, some of them may be less than 20 lakhs, they may be so small they may not be coming under this. You see the campaigns in all television; see the campaigns on all newspapers. Frankly, Sheela ben, in a country of 85 lakh assessees or 6 crore traders and business persons, let’s do a fair analysis, go across not find one …. Let’s go to 5000 traders and businessmen and you will get adequate comfort that people are prepared it, they are welcoming it, they are happy. Certainly, there is a small section which may not be aware, इसलिए इतनी help desk, helplines, CAs, CS, Company Secretaries, institutions, tax officials across the country are holding workshops, help desks and help lines. I think it’s very easy to pick holes, like that I can pick a 100 holes in your channel’s reporting. Holes निकालना तो बड़ा easy है, विस्तार से देखना पड़ता है what is the big picture.

Q.It’s not about you and me. It’s about people. People are saying….
A.Well, you have found one or two examples, I will take you to 50,000 people against two who are delighted and happy and know everything.

Q.But, do you agree that GST is touching every single Indian?
A.Of course, that is why we are celebrating it. We are happy that the whole country has come together.

Q.But Mr Goyal, the unorganized sector which was earlier out of the tax ambit, you are now bringing it in. But a lot of people are also unhappy for the logistics of it, you have to be computer literate to file GST. Aren’t you going to have a total revolution?
A.May I correct you? It’s not about the unorganized sector, unorganized sector which is small in nature is still out of it, up to 20 lakh turnover you are still out, beyond 20 lakh turnover you don’t call it unorganized sector. What we are bringing in is the informal sector, people who cheated on taxes, who didn’t pay their taxes honestly. For them, there is certainly a difficulty in this new regime. Data is going to be captured at so many places that if you try to cheat on taxes somewhere you will get caught. And, I think your channel would be as much delighted as me that we are finally going to have hopefully a corruption-free regime, where black marketing doesn’t happen, people cannot evade taxes, competition is on quality of service, quality of goods. Not on ability to cheat on taxes.

And, as regards the fact that the nation’s comfort on this, I think most sectors of society are extremely happy that the multifarious taxes, cascading effect of taxes is gone, a very simplified format in which you only have to write the sales that you have done, everything else is automatic. You just write the sales that you have done and that’s it. So, instead of hundreds of papers and returns which you had to do earlier, I have run industry. Sales tax different papers, excise different, service tax different, entry tax in Navi Mumbai different, all that is gone. 17 taxes, 33 cesses, gone. One tax, which have to do only a sales register, everything else is automatic. And it’s not necessary to be computer literate, so, those who are not, all you need to do is there is an offline process. You enter your sales in that offline and on one day in the month go to a call centre in 3 minutes or 5 minutes, you can upload that sales data and your work is done.

Q.So, are you sure about corruption, because if any retailer is not transferring profit to consumer, anti-profiteering device is there?
A.So, you don’t want us to protect the consumers?

Q.No, I agree, but if they also take bribe, then?
A. Because the computer system being one, that is the one which will generate the trigger, individual will not know after all. It is the system which will generate whether correctly the input taxes are being passed on to the consumers or they are being …. with adding of a new GST without taking the credit into account. So, these are things which will evolve. Anti-profiteering is more a deterrent than something, which will be used for harassment. And I can assure you, the intention of all the states I believe is not to harass anybody. Largely, the assessees are going to be under the charge of state governments in which all political parties will be involved. So, I do hope they will also not harass……

Q.What do you want to tell small traders, you know, they have a industry, they are really worried?
A. I want to reassure all small traders, rest in peace. It’s a very simplified regime that is coming in. It’s very taxpayer friendly. It’s very user friendly. It’s very customer friendly. And it’s friendly to the honest, unfriendly to the dishonest. I appeal to all my brothers and sisters in trade and business, come into this system, adopt it with a open mind, adopt with an intention to be a good citizen of this country to contribute to the development of India. If somebody is evading taxes, remember that’s the money that you would have otherwise paid and it’s a small amount. Only on your value add you are paying a tax, will go to light some poor person’s home and give a child education, will go to give a poor person healthcare for his parents. When you are evading taxes, remember that in the back of your mind. I have full confidence that no Indian will ever cheat on taxes, because he knows that this tax is going to go to serve society, serve the poor of India.

Q.Is it realistic? You know the level of corruption.
A.100%! Well, when we asked for Give It UP, more than 1 crore people like you, like her gave up your LPG subsidized cylinder because you knew and you trusted the government to give a free connection to the poor of this country which we are doing. 2.15 crore connections given free of charge, another 3 crore more going to be given. So, people of India trust that their tax money will go to serve the poor of India, and I am sure all of us will work towards that.

Q.Is it a Narendra Modi’s tryst with destiny?
A.It’s the country’s tryst with destiny, because the GST Council comprises all parties in government in any state who have taken all the decisions. We are one out of 30. It’s a tryst with destiny with all parties who passed a constitutional amendment bill, who passed the legislative amendments in the country. So, it’s collective confidence of this nation, collective achievement of this nation. I think everybody should be a part of that celebration.

Q.There is the fear of common man which is that inflation होगा in the short term, it’s too soon after demonetization and for how long…?
A. Which is why the anti-profiteering resolution has been brought in, and, ultimately, in multifarious taxes, which were not being given a credit are now going to be subsumed in one. I think there is no reason to fear about inflation. But let it start, if we get any such signals, we will respond, the GST Council will respond to that appropriately. So, let’s start, otherwise, for fear of the unknown or fear of drowning if you never jump in the water, you will never learn how to swim.

Ends.

Thank you very much Mr PK Pujari, Secretary Power, for your kind words, Mr Bakshi, Member CRC, Mr Verma, Chairman Central Electricity Authority, Ms. Jyoti Arora, Mr KVS Bhabha, Mr Jha, CMD of Powergrid Corporation, Mr Michael Satin of USAID, Mr Soni from POSOCO, both the distinguished authors of this report, Dr Jacqueline Kochwan and Dr SR Narsimhan, ladies and gentlemen.

First of all, I would like to thank you, Mr Satin for all your wonderful comments. India and the US certainly share a very-very, if I can use a energy sector term, a very robust relationship and soon after this wonderful interaction that Hon’ble Prime Minister and Hon’ble President of the US have had in Washington, I think, it’s very appropriate that our joint partnership in the Energy Sector has come with one more achievement, one more outcome for which all of the stakeholders, who are in this room, have been working for so long. And, I must compliment the authors and all the other stakeholders – the Ministry, the CEA, CERC, other organizations and individuals – who have played an important role in making this happen and, certainly, would like to thank the USAID for your support, your continued engagement in our various programmes in the energy sector.

Sitting there and hearing a lot of coal bashing, I was wondering whether if this goes on too long, what happens to my role also as the Coal Minister. It is a little bit of a contradiction in terms that I have to keep the coal industry also going, while I ensure large scale renewable outreach in the energy sector, and from the Power side also maintain that the grid stability and the grid continues to be robust and does not have, ever, or never ever, have a situation of what happened in August, 2012. But the good part is that we are all working as a team, we have broken all the silos that used to constraint development of this sector and, today, we have Coal India also, having its first one thousand Megawatt of renewable power generation in the current year, slated to come up in the current year, and I am given to understand that Coal India’s own ambition is to also generate about 10,000 Megawatt (10 Gigawatts) of renewable energy as its contribution to a better planet, as its contribution to greening this country and greening the world.

So, this kind of sensitivity and combined, collective, collaborative approach, really defines the success of renewable energy in this country. Of, course, as we are moving towards a New India, I think, it’s only appropriate that we also plan a new Grid for a new India. And, as the distinguished authors said, transmission is going to be a key element to the larger roll-out of renewable energy in this country.

And, going forward, I think in different aspects, be it the policy makers, be it the regulator, be it the electricity authorities, be it the Grid operators, Grid managers and frankly even, the consumers of this country. All of us will have to get sensitized to the changing scenario of different sources of energy, how different sources of energy play an important role in the overall ecosystem, not necessarily only the value of power or the value of power that we determine in the short run, but the long term impact of the different sources of power – its pricing, its direct and indirect costs.

I think we need an overhaul of the mindset of the nation in this context, in the newer context. In fact, we very often, when we are making policy, we also find that most policies – be it in the Ministry of Coal, be it in the Ministry of Power, also in the Ministry of Renewable Energy are tailored around a mindset of shortages and perpetual distress and we have to, I think, re-orient our policies, our regulations, to now work in a scenario where the country is power surplus, the country is coal surplus, renewable energy is not anymore more expensive than thermal power. Certainly, in the long run, it’s far cheaper than thermal based power.

After all, who can predict what thermal power will cost five years, ten years or twenty five years from now, but one can certainly, based on current pricing, know that we will continue to get renewable energy – be it Solar, be it Wind, be it Hydro – at a defined price for decades to come, and it’s only getting better by the day. And, in this scenario, the fact that India is playing such an important role in the global effort to address the concerns of climate change, very few countries in the world really are planning over 20 percent of their energy consumption, in installed capacity be would, probably, be 70-80 percent in the next few years, coming out of renewable energy, but 20 percent of our actual energy consumption coming out of only Wind, Solar, small Hydro. When we add the larger Hydro beyond 25 MW, which is by and large renewable and we are already discussing that it should be recognized as such, which is done by almost all the countries in the world.

I think a study done by the Ministry of Power has shown that, say and except four or five countries, everybody else considers Hydro as renewable and we are on the path to do that. Once we do that, we would probably be going closer to 30 percent of actual energy consumed becoming renewable by in the next five or six years.

The study has also shown that at peak hours or on occasions, we would go as high as 55 or 56 percent. Did you also take the large Hydro into consideration in that or it’s only Wind, Solar? So, if we take the larger hydro, then possibly we could do what happened in Britain for one day or which happened in, where there were 100 percent renewable for one day in the current year, or Germany claimed that it went up to 80 percent, at that point of time, I think very soon before the Hon’ble Prime Minister was there last month. On renewable energy, if we take the large Hydro also into consideration, I think this 56 percent may actually go up to 70, 75-80 percent on a nice rainy day. So, India is really today moving to global benchmarks and that has been our approach of this government in the last three years.

The current Government of India and the people of India will not settle for second best. We have to be the best in the World. We have to aim to be the best in the World. We will set our standards, set our goals to be better than everybody else in the World. We are willing to bring in the best of technologies. We are wanting to be a global responsible citizen. We are wanting to leave behind for our next generation, a more robust, a more sustainable future, and there will be no compromise, whatsoever, in our pursuit of this goal.

The report, certainly, as we move towards the better and better energy mix in this country, the nine reports so far and the tenth that we have launched today will certainly be a guiding force, a guiding light in our endeavours to rapidly roll-out renewable energy. I must say, it’s a matter of deep satisfaction for me today when I hear the Chairperson of CEA mention that when we announced the 175 Gigawatt target, about two and a half years ago, he was full of trepidation, he was very-very concerned, and I hope, I have your permission to quote what you have just said. He said, I have been a load dispatcher myself since CEA used to handle this task for many years before POSOCO probably took over. He said after fifteen years of actually managing load dispatches, I was a concerned individual when you announced the 175 Gigawatts. But, today as I sit on this podium, I am reassured and I am very-very convinced and satisfied that we will have no problem in handling a 175 GW of renewable energy.

And, I think it is this pursuit of the last two years relentlessly done by people like Jyoti, Mr Soni, as we saw Dr Narsimhan and Dr. Jacqueline probably burn the midnight oil and over 365 days of labour and I would say this can only be labour of love to put in that kind of effort to come up with such a robust story or a robust future in such a short period of time. And I was asking Jyoti there, do these nine reports and what we are releasing today all integrate among themselves before they can integrate the Grid, and she has assured me that they all work in partnership, in collaboration with each other and that ladies and gentlemen, is a matter of great satisfaction for each one of us in this room who have contributed to making this happen.

Mr Pujari lays down Office as Secretary, Power, tomorrow. I will certainly, certainly miss him but it’s a great and a very befitting – what’s it called a swansong? To a glorious career, and I would like all of us to stand up and give him a standing ovation today, for his leadership of the power sector.

Considering the importance and the growing impact that renewable energy sources of power have had in our country in the last couple of years, I was just informed by Ms Jyoti Arora that we have mandated that there shall be a Central Registry of Renewable Energy Sources, for which instructions have already been given out, the mandating of it has already been done. I would urge the regulator to help us make the necessary regulation, so that we can ensure that the Central Registry captures all the sources of renewable energy across the length and breadth of India. And Chairperson, CEA, has assured me that very soon, within a month or so, they will come up with the mechanism by which this data will be captured. Keep it simple, may be a mobile app, on which people can on their own feed in the data that the Central Registry needs to maintain. Data will also be available for the public at large. It will encourage other people to come into the sector. It will help Grid Managers, Load Dispatch Centres to manage their own plans going forward. It will also help us create a national map on who is doing what, which other States, which are sensitive to this issue.

I am sure the people of India, in the years to come, will also start voting in elections for governments which are sensitive to the environment, which are caring for the environment and at that point of time, such a Central Registry will be an important tool for us, politicians, to go to the people and say that this is what we have done in our term in Office to add to a sensitive and a more sustainable future of India. And this Central Registry, I think, will become an important tool for policy makers going forward.

I am sure, the authors of this report would have benefitted very much if we had such a Registry, but then for the future, I am sure this will turn out to be a great support going forward. Another very important decision that the Ministry of Power has recently taken to support Renewable Energy sector has been that the technical minimum at which power plants, thermal power plants, are allowed to come down at which they will continue to get their costs.

I am not a technical person, so please pardon me, if I make any mistake in the technical terminology. But, whatever, that 70 percent is going to be reduced to 55 percent. So, the technical minimum we are already mandating to be brought down to 55 percent, so that coal based thermal plants, as the authors have showed us, can be ramped down up to 55 percent, allowing greater integration of renewable power into the Grid.

And, already NTPC and the Ministry of Power are in research with Fraunhofer Institute of Germany to see how we can have faster ramp down of coal based power. The CEA has already mandated that we can ramp down at 3 percent of the capacity of each plant. So, a 660 MW Plant is permitted to ramp down at about 19.8 MW per minute already, but we are working with Fraunhofer, some project has come up in UK in Radcliff where the ramp down at 25 MW per minute, which will help the Gird Managers to do their job better.

So, coal over the years in the future will have to be prepared for a occasional ramp down to ensure Grid stability but as Chairman, CEA, said that the best way to provide a spinning reserve for Renewable Energy is ultimately, Hydro. Only yesterday evening till the late hours, we have had a wonderful engagement with the Hydro sector in India. A lot of good ideas have come on the table, some of them have been resisted by the Power Ministry, but I have to, after yesterday’s meeting, I have not got down to sitting down with the Power Ministry. But a few things we can support from the regulation point of view, particularly, transmission. I think, samajhne wale samajh gaye honge, but I think, as a nation, we will also have to, all of us, work to see how we can make Hydro once again a robust growth engine of the power sector, which will certainly ensure a far more seamless and efficient way of balancing the Grid.

While I was walking in, just a few minutes ago, my friends from the media who never let me down and are with me in every part of my journey over the last three years, and for which also, I think, I don’t know, today is Pujari Sahab’s day but one of these days, we will have to, on a much larger platform, acknowledge the role of the media in my own work over the last three years, which has truly been phenomenal. I mean there is so much I have learnt from the media, I can’t tell you. But they were asking me what’s new today?

I mean they are sick of the same, Gobi Ka Parauntha every day. So, I am wondering what can be something new for the day. Because, I think, such important things like a pathway to integrate 175 GW of renewable energy is somehow not catching the fancy of, or the headlines in the next day’s papers, which is a sad thing. Honestly, the amount of work that goes into all of these, the backend of all these outcomes often gets unnoticed, unsung and we can’t do all these great things for this country unless this backend is secured.

I have very often, on many platforms, said  that it’s time that the nation actually had at least a column, at least a small slot on television, which speaks about all the good things that are happening, which speaks about all the…., and these are very inspirational for other people.

You know, when I walked into the room, and I saw so many people, I said, my God, in these days, we don’t get such a large audience for a programme. How did you manage to get so many people interested in this subject?

It’s a great support and encouragement for people who are putting in large amount of effort in preparing the country for a better future. And I think that should get an equally important recognition, which will encourage the next generation, encourage others to play the role at the backend also. Otherwise, for us Ministers, it’s very easy, one programme to the other, one interview to the next. A lot of glory can come our way but it really has, it pales in significance when you see each one of the ladies and gentlemen on the dais, off the dais (inaudible) to make these success stories really happen.

And I do hope my friends from the media will not let me down, because I do believe that these are really the backbone of the success story that we have had in the last two-two and a half years. A country, which permanently for years and decades, believed that it will always be power shortage, there will always be coal shortage. Millions of people had resigned to the fate of not getting power. And hundreds of millions were resigned to the fate of not getting 24 hours power. That story is changing. And in that changing story, to maintain sustainability as an important outcome is, to my mind, a huge story. And this will be the path that will help us maintain power prices at affordable prices. End of the day, this is a path, which will create jobs for the country.

When I was just asking Mr Pujari, a 4,000 MW coal-based power plant, an ultra-mega power plant, what kind of jobs can that generate? All the equipment is largely made in automated large plants, the power plant itself. And, I have gone to so many plants now, the Control Room handles the entire plant, coal handling plants, automated plants are handling coal. Loading, unloading in the rakes or trucks is getting automated.

Coal mining activity is gradually, we are improving the productivity on that, automating wherever possible to keep the coal costs low, so that the consumers are not stressed with high power prices, high power tariffs. But, compare that to a Renewable Energy project.

I mean a waste to energy or the projects for which I got delayed where we are looking at briquetting this rice husk and paddy and using that briquette into coal-based power plants into making gas. All of these, when we look at the number of jobs that it will generate, direct and indirect. When you look at the amount of money you will be giving to the farmer instead of burning his rice husk. He will actually get a value for that rice husk. When you set up a 1,000 Megawatts or 1 Gigawatt of Solar Plant, making each of those modules, each of those solar equipment, maintaining it, cleaning it. The ecosystem of working, the jobs has such a huge multiplier effect that that itself becomes a social cause or a social reason to encourage renewable energy.

I mean on a apple to apple, if we are to compare the entire ecosystem from beginning to end, in the current day of automation, where at least this government has laid emphasis not on a top-down approach, but on a bottom-up approach. I think renewable energy has the potential of creating may be seven or eight or ten jobs per, ten times more jobs per kilowatt hour or unit of electricity than the traditional forms of energies has. Maybe, if somebody in this room or a group of some of you can do a study on that, that would make for very interesting reading.

I was today also looking at, as I just mentioned, at the possibilities of using this waste and I would urge the regulator and the department to consider, and I am making …… in an open forum instead of my office that when a coal based power plant, suppose, it uses 10 percent of this briquettes coming out of rice husk instead of coal. Can we categorize that as renewable energy up to 10 percent of the energy that is produced, and encourage more and more people to use these rice husk based briquettes in replacement for coal and I am told that it would be a very good value proposition because the calorific value of this rice husk can go as high as 3,800 per kilo.

So, all of us have to think innovative and work as a team. I am only asking giving this example to show you how together when each one of us comes up with newer ideas and these ideas only evolve in discussions and engagement. It’s not as if I had planned for it before 10 o’clock this morning when they started explaining to me what they have planning for this problem, which we have been trying to address.

Can we, and I have also thrown this suggestion to my team this morning, can we look at the manure coming out of gobar, the cow dung, which is truly organic manure and, actually, internationally fetches a premium valuation. But because it is made in small number, ……. is not getting the value. How can we look at, instead of giving a large amounts of subsidy to, maybe plants, which are set up or (inaudible) required for renewable energy. Can we look at some more innovative ways to ensure that we bring down the waste or utilize the waste to generate wealth in this country?

One thought that came up this morning, we are, of course, giving Ujjwala LPG connections to the poor of this country, free of charge. And I am happy to say my colleague, Mr Dharmendra Pradhan, has done some fantastic work in one year to give over 2 crore poor women, dignity of life, through free LPG connection, so that they are not at the mercy of wood and coal and other traditional polluting and environment unfriendly forms of cooking. Target is to do 5 crores in another year, year and a half more!

Can we support that movement by taking up cow dung to gas plants across the length and breadth of the country, wherever there is a cowshed or a Gaushala and incentivize that gas being bottled into maybe 5 kg containers and provide to all these beneficiaries under the Ujjwala Scheme, so that they also get low cost, affordable, localized gas.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the unique and distinctive feature of this government working to break the silos, working as a team, engaging with each other, to commit, to make a New India.

Thank You.

वास्तव में जीएसटी के ऊपर इतनी चर्चा हो चुकी है कि उसके technicalities के अंदर ना जाते हुए मैं कोशिश करूंगा कि उसके पीछे परिप्रेक्ष्य क्या है, भावना क्या है, उद्देश्य क्या है,  उस पर अपने आप को सीमित रखूं, 2002-03 में जब वाजपेयी जी की एनडीए-1 की सरकार थी, तब ये कल्पना सामने रखी गयी, उसके बाद सरकार बदल गयी 2007 में पुनः एक बार, 07 या 08 में बजट में इसका जिक्र हुआ, 2011 में proposed  कानून देश के समक्ष आया, उसपे विचार विमर्श चलता रहा, कई concern थे इंडस्ट्री के, कई concern थे स्टेट गवर्नमेंट्स के, उन सबको सम्मिलित करते करते आज 2017 में, पहली जुलाई 2017 को, मैं समझता हूं इतिहास,  भारत के आर्थिक जगत का इतिहास फिर एक बार लिखा जाने वाला है, जीएसटी के आगमन से, जीएसटी लागू होने से। बड़ा विशाल देश है, अलग अलग जगहों पे अलग अलग टैक्स लगते हैं, टैक्स रेट्स हैं, अलग अलग काम के पीछे एक ही व्यक्ति को, एक ही व्यापारी को, एक ही उद्योगपति को बहुत सारे taxes  का रिकार्ड रखना पड़ता है, taxes pay करने पड़ते हैं, अलग अलग व्यक्ति आ कर उसका assessment करते हैं, और इन सबको अगर देखें, और मैने स्वयं अपना जीवन एक छोटे उद्यमी के नाते स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्री चालू कर के शुरु किया था।

मुझे अभी भी याद है कि एक्साइज के अलग रिकार्ड बनते थे, उन दिनों में सर्विस टैक्स नही था बाद में सर्विस टैक्स भी introduce हो गया, उन दिनों सेल्स टैक्स होता था जो बाद में जा के वैट बना वैल्यू एडेड टैक्स, लेकिन कभी भी वैल्यू ऐडेड टैक्स में एक पूर्ण रूप से पूरा इनपुट क्रेडिट कभी मिलता नही था, क्योंकि जो सेल्स टैक्स या वैट पे होता था उसका ही क्रेडिट मिलता था, MODVAT  मिलता था तो एक सीमित रूप में वैल्यू चैन को capture किया गया वैट के माध्यम से लेकिन पूर्णतः सभी taxes को सम्मिलित करने की ये कदम जो जीएसटी के माध्यम से की गयी है जिसमें सर्विस टैक्स, सेल टैक्स अथवा वैट, एक्साइज ड्यूटी, एंट्री टैक्स, मैं नवी मुंबई में भी फैक्टरी चलाता था वहां एंट्री टैक्स होता था या ऑक्ट्राय मुंबई में ऑक्ट्राय और कई शहरों मे ऑक्ट्राय लगता है, ऐसे मिला के करीब 11-12 अलग अलग, जो व्यापारी या उद्योगपतियों के सामने, या जो भी बिजनेस करता है उस सबके ऊपर cascading effect,  मल्टिफेरियस taxes का होता था कि अलग अलग स्टेप पर टैक्स लगता है लेकिन उसका पूरी तरह से compensation  नही होता है मैने एक्सपोर्ट भी काफी किया और एक्सपोर्ट में ये बहुत ही तकलीफ रहती थी, अब एक्सपोर्ट कर रहे हैं तो हो सकता है कि एक्साइज ड्यूटी तो रिफंड मिल जाये, वैट ना लगे, लेकिन जो हम ऑक्ट्राय pay करते थे या एंट्री टैक्स pay  करते थे उसका तो हमें कोई सेट ऑफ नही मिलता था कोई रिफंड नही मिलता था, अगर किसी कंसल्टेंट को engage किया, सर्विस टैक्स pay किया, कोई टैक्निकल एक्सपर्ट को engage  किया, उसका रिफंड नही मिलता था,  एक प्रकार से जो एक हरएक देश की कल्पना रहती है कि you should export goods and services, you should never export the local taxes, domestic taxes, ये एक तरीके से फेल हो रही थी भारत में जब उस test को चैक करते थे अपने इम्पोर्ट एंड एक्सपोर्ट को, साथ ही साथ डोमेस्टिक मैन्युफैक्चरर को अलग अलग टैक्स लगते थे पर जब कोई व्यक्ति कोई विषय को कोई चीज को इम्पोर्ट करता था तो सीवीडी के माध्यम से वैट और एक्साइज जरूर एक प्रकार से इम्पोर्टेड गुड्स पर भी लग जाता था काउंटर विलिंग ड्यूटी के माध्यम से, लेकिन बाकि जो hidden taxes हम डोमेस्टिक मैन्युफैक्चरर पे करते थे वो हमारे ऊपर बोझ रहता था इम्पोर्ट के ऊपर बोझ नही रहता था, इन सब anomalies को इन सब जो एक प्रकार से 70 वर्षों में जाने अन्जाने में जो चीजे भारत की अर्थवयवस्था में , भारत के उद्यमी को, भारत के उद्योग को , मेक इन इंडिया को, सर्व इन इंडिया को अफैक्ट करती थी, इन सबको address करने के लिये और सामान्य जनता के पास जो गुड्स या सर्विसेस जायें , जो सेवा होती है जनता की जो वस्तु खरीदते हैं, वो सही दाम पर जायें, उसमें मल्टिपल taxes का बोझ कन्ज्यूमर के ऊपर ना पड़े, कन्ज्यूमर को ध्यान में आये कि मैं जो वस्तु खरीद रहा हूं, या जो सर्विस सेवा ले रहा हूं उसका मूल दाम ये है, और केंद्र सरकार, राज्य सरकार, लोकल बॉडी, सभी के मिला कर सम्मिलित taxes, combined taxes का बर्डन मेरे ऊपर फलाना है, इस प्रकार से जीएसटी की कल्पना की गयी।

मुझे बडा आनंद है कि देश का हर हिस्सा, हर कोना, जम्मू कश्मीर में थोड़ा विलंब हो रहा है, और उसके अलावा पूरे देश में सर्वसम्मति से ये पारित किया गया, आज देश के हर राज्य सरकार ने, जम्मू काश्मीर भी जल्द आ जायेगी, सबने इसमे अपनी आहुति दी है इसको सफल बनाने में, अपना काम किया है, मैं कल ही अपने फाइनेंस सैक्रेटरी हंसमुख आडिया जी को बधाई दे रहा था कि जैसे जैसे मै जीएसटीएन नेटवर्क, जो आपने पूरा फ्रेमवर्क बनाया है इतना बढिया बनाया है कि मेरी भी कल्पना के बाहर है, तो तुरंत उनका जवाब आया कि नही साहब ये मेरा या हमारा कोई इसमे अकेले का कोई क्रेडिट नही है, इसका क्रेडिट जायेगा पिछली 11 साल 12 साल से जो लोग इसपर काम कर रहे हैं चाहे वो राजनीतिज्ञ हों, चाहे वो अधिकारी हों, चाहे इंडस्ट्री बॉडीज हों, चाहे उद्योग जगत के लोग हों,  या सर्विस सैक्टर के लोग हों, सबने मिल के जिस प्रकार से इसमे  अलग अलग पहलू पे विचार विमर्श किया, जिस प्रकार से इसको बनाने में सबका योगदान रहा this is the collective and collaborative and cooperative vision of the entire nation, that will come on into effect on 1st of July , its a true example of a democracy , which is a federal polity एक प्रकार से संघीय ढांचा जो भारत का है वो कैसे मिल जुल के जनता की सेवा करे , जनता के लाभदायक पॉलिसी बनाये नीतिया बनाये, उसका अगर कोई उदाहरण है तो ये जीएसटी है, मैं सभी राज्य सरकारों को और वास्तव में तो सभी राजनैतिक दलों को शायद राज्य सरकारों में कोई दल ना भी हो लेकिन लोकसभा या राज्य सभा या कोई लेजिस्लेचर में उनका कोई प्रतिनिधि हो तो भी सबका योगदान है क्योंकि सर्वसम्मति से ये देश में लागू होने जा रहा है तो एक प्रकार से जो पहली जुलाई 2017, चार दिन बाद होगा उसका इंस्टीट्यूट ऑफ चार्टेड एकाउंटेंट, जिसका मैं भी मेंबर हूं as a chartered accountant , उन्होंने एक कार्यक्रम की कल्पना की है felicitation of all the chief minister of the state and hon’ble prime minister and all the people behind the making of GST the success of GST, मैं समझता हूं its a fitting tribute to the collective wisdom of the entire country which has made GST possible, जीएसटी नेट्वर्क बहुत अच्छे तरीके से तैयार किया गया है , कुछ गलतफहमियां, मिस इन्फॉर्मेशन अभी भी देश के समक्ष हैं जिसको मैं आपको बधाई दूंगा कि एबीपी ने एक प्रकार का सम्मेलन रख के , एक प्रकार से संगोष्ठि रख के मौका दिया जनता को अपने सवाल पूछ्ने का और समझने का कि वास्तव में जैसे बात की जाती है कि 37 रिटर्न्स हैं, ये एकदम कुछ बेवकूफ लोगों की मिसइनफॉर्मेशन , मिस इंटरप्रिटेशन है , और मैं बड़ी जिम्मेदारी से ये शब्द यूज कर रहा हूं कि शायद उन्होने कोशिश ही नही की है समझने की कि कितना अच्छा सिस्टम बनाया है ।

हम पहले भी व्यापार करते थे, बिजनेस करते थे, सेल्स रजिस्टर तो हम सबको बनाना पड़ता था, ऐसा कोई बिजनेस नही है जिसको अपना सेल्स रजिस्टर या सेल्स invoice एंटर कर के एक डेटा बनाना पड़े कि सेल्स मेरी क्या क्या हुई, ये तो हम सबको करना पड़ता है चाहे इन्डॉयरेक्ट टैक्स के लिये चाहे अपने इंकम टैक्स रिटर्न के लिये , वास्तव में पहले तो ऐसा था कि एक सेल्स रजिस्टर सेल्स टैक्स के लिये बनता था वैट के लिये, एक एक्साइज के लिये बनता था, अलग एंट्री टैक्स के लिये बनता था, इंकम टैक्स के लिये अलग फॉर्मेट में चीजे बनती थी, ये सब अब इतिहास हो जायेगा, हर व्यापारी को, हर उद्यमी को, हर उद्योगपति को सिर्फ एक, सेल्स रजिस्टर बनाना है उसके अलावा बाकि सब नैचुरली ऑटोमेटिकली कम्प्यूटर सिस्टम के द्वारा तैयार होगा तो इतनी सरलता से हम ये जीएसटी को लागू कर पायेंगे, और ये सो कॉल्ड रिटर्न्स कोई रिटर्न्स नही है, एक बार आपने अपनी सेल्स रजिस्टर डाल बना दी,  वो आपका एक रिटर्न हो गया , उस बाकि सबने जब अपनी अपनी सेल्स रजिस्टर बनाई तो ऑटोमेटिकली परचेस रजिस्टर लोगों की auto-populate होगी , वो दूसरा रिटर्न ऑटोमेटिक बनने वाला है किसी को मेहनत नही करनी है।

स्वाभाविक है, इतना बड़ा ट्रांसफॉर्मेशन , गेम चेंजिंग रिफॉर्म हो रहा है, तो थोड़े दिन तक ये समस्यायें आयेंगी सीखने समझने में थोड़ा समय लग सकता है, शुरु में मैचिंग करना पड़ेगा कि भई हमने 10 जगह से परचेस किया, हमारे परजेस रजिस्टर में ऑटोमेटिकली auto-populate हो कर साथ ही आये तो भई  तीन लोगों को फोन करना पड़ेगा कि शायद आपने भूल कर दी सेल्स रजिस्टर बनाने में मेरा invoice नही डाला, शायद आपने मेरा जीएसटीएन नंबर ठीक से नही डाला, जिसकी वजह से मुझे, मेरे उसमें पॉपुलेट नही हुआ है, तो सामने वाला व्यक्ति ठीक कर देगा सेल्स रजिस्टर, कोई ढीट हो, या चोरी करना चाहता हो, या अपना सेल्स रजिस्टर ठीक से ना दिखाना चाहता हो, तो अगर मैने गुड्स खरीदे हैं, मैं अपने आप परचेस रजिस्टर में डाल के उसको अपने परचेस रजिस्टर को कंपलीट कर सकता हूं, उससे सामने वाले के सिस्टम में वो एक सेल्स की तरह खड़ा हो जायेगा, एक प्रकार से भारत में जितने लाखों करोड़ों transaction हो रही हैं, वो सब एक डेटाबेस में आने से चोरी करना , नंबर दो का धंधा करना या एक अलग बही खाता रखना जिसमे हम इंकम टैक्स ना भरें, एक्साइज ना भरें, वैट ना भरें, ये लगभग असंभव सा होता जाता दिख रहा है मुझे, और शायद यही चोट है जिसके कारण कुछ लोग आंदोलन की बात करते हैं, कुछ लोग इसको oppose करते हैं, और कुछ लोग अनाप शनाप इसकी समस्याएं create करने की कोशिश करते है, स्वाभाविक है कि कुछ समस्याएं genuine भी आयेंगी, जीएसटी काउंसिल authorized body आज केंद्र सरकार या वित्त मंत्री अपने आप में कुछ नही कर सकते, जो होना है जीएसटी काउंसिल, हमने अपनी पूरी ऑथोरिटी जीएसटी काउंसिल के समक्ष रख दी है, अब आम सहमति से सभी राज्य सरकारें, उनके वित्त मंत्री, केंद्र सरकार की सहमति से आगे के निर्णय लिये जाते हैं, ऐसी परिस्थिति में जब कोई समस्या आयेगी तो हम बड़ी गंभीरता से, बड़ी संवेदना से उसको जीएसटी काउंसिल के समक्ष रख सकते हैं, सुधार हो सकता है जहां जहां जरूरी हो, अल्टीमेटली इतनी बड़ी चीज जब होने जा रही है तो स्वाभाविक है कि कुछ ना कुछ कम ज्यादा, अच्छा बुरा ध्यान में आयेगा ही चल के, हम अपने अपने व्यापार में देखें, आपके शो में देख लीजिये, at the end of the show, and i am sure कि debrief होता होगा, कि शो में ये कमी रह गयी , इस प्रकार से करते ज्यादा अच्छा होता, ये सवाल पूछते तो पीयूष गोयल कॉर्नर हो जाता, शायद कभी रह जाता होगा, हो सकता है ध्यान में आता होगा कि बड़ा लंबा हो गया, अभी अभी मैने वहां कोई एक नोट पढा, बिग बोर, हो सकता है कभी कभी कोई शो बोरिंग हो जाता है, उसको कैसे सुधारना, ये भी आप लोगों की debriefing में निकलता होगा, और उससे आप आगे का सुधार करते होंगे, वो कहते हैं ना कि change is the only constant in life, सुधार अगर करने की आवश्यकता नही हो, फिर तो आगे मंत्रियों की भी आवश्यकता नही रहेगी, अधिकारियों की भी नही रहेगी, अगर अपने आप से सब कुछ ही बढिया चल जाये, तो मैं इसको एक प्रकार से स्विमिंग की तरह देखता हूं, हम कितना भी तट पर खड़े रहें, कितनी बटर फ्लाई, स्ट्रोक  फलाना ढिमका फ्री जो भी होता है, मै बहुत स्विमिंग जानता नही हूं, इसलिये मुझे नही मालूम, लेकिन हम खड़े हुए कितनी भी  ट्रेनिंग प्रैक्टिस कर लें, तट पर खड़े हुए, हम स्विमिंग नही सीख सकते, पानी में एक बार तो कूदना ही पड़ेगा, और जब एक बार कूदेंगे, तो एक आध बार नाक में पानी भी जरूर जायेगा, लेकिन स्विमिंग का आनंद  जो लेते हैं लोग, और जो स्विमिंग में आनंद आता है बाद में, उसके लिये जो थोड़ी बहुत कठिनाई , शायद एक बार डर निकालने की जरूरत पड़ती है, एक बार पानी में कूदने की जरूरत पड़ती है, दो तीन दिन कोई सिखा दे तो मैं समझता हूं दो तीन दिन में ही आदमी एटलीस्ट बेसिक्स ऑफ स्विमिंग सीख लेता है, जिसके लिये हैंड होल्डिंग की व्यवस्था की गई है।

इंस्टीट्यूट ऑफ चार्टर्ड एकाउंटेंट अकेले ने 200 सेंटर्स में मुफ्त में, निशुल्क लोगों को हेल्प करने में , हैंड होल्ड करने में, रजिस्टर कैसे करना, रिटर्न्स के लिये कैसे अपनी तैयारी करना, सेल्स रजिस्टर कैसे बनाना, और वास्तव में पहले के 10-10 12 रिटर्न्स के बदले एक सेल्स रजिस्टर हर महिने आपको बना के सब्मिट करनी है, दैट्स इट, everything else will gradually you will get used to the concept कि कैसे ऑटोपॉपुलेट हो के, एक आध दो गलतियां हों, वो ठीक कर के , ऑटोमेटिक आपके रिटर्न्स भरने की व्यवस्था शुरु हो जायेगी, एक्सपोर्टर को 7 दिन के अंदर 90% अपने टैक्सस का क्रेडिट मिल जायेगा, बाकि वेरिफिकेशन के बाद बाकि 10% मिल जायेगा। नंबर 2 का धंधा, इन्फॉर्मल इकॉनॉमी, जो अपने टैक्सस ईमानदारी से pay नही करते हैं, उनको जरूर समस्या आयेगी, मेरे पास उसका समाधान नही है, मैं समझता हूं एबीपी जैसा एक रिस्पांसिबल चैनल , इस रूम मे बैठे सभी रिस्पांसिबल लोग जरूर चाहेंगे कि आगे की व्यवस्था इस देश की ईमानदार हो , जिसके लिये प्रधानमंत्री श्री नरेंद्र मोदी जी और उनकी सरकार प्रतिबद्ध है, मैं समझता हूं देश की हर सरकार जिसको आप लोगों ने चुन के भेजा है , उन सबने अगर मिलके इसको सर्वसम्मति से पारित किया है तो जरूर इसमे देश हित होगा जरूर इसमे जनता का हित होगा, इसको हम एक नकारात्मक सोच के बदले पॉजिटिव सोच , एक पॉजिटिविटी के साथ ऑप्टिमिज्म के साथ, जब अपनायेंगे, तो समस्याओं का भी हल निकलेगा Afterall a problem is a problem, only until a solution is found, and there is no problem for which we cannot find a solution , तो मैं समझता हूं कि आपने जरूर जिक्र किया कि कई लोग चिंतित हैं, कई लोग इसको ओपोज कर रहे हैं, वास्तव में मैने कल भी एसेस किया कल परसों मैने कई मीटिंग्स की, व्यापारी मंडलों के साथ मुंबई में, जो देश का आर्थिक कैपिटल भी है , मुझे ऐसा किधर कोई ऑपोजिशन नही दिखा, कुछ लोगों को समझने में कठिनाई आई है, उसमे हम मदद कर रहे हैं, कुछ लोगों को शायद कुछ विषयों में हमें और गंभीरता से जीएसटी काउंसिल के साथ चर्चा करनी पड़ सकती है, एसोशियेसंस को, गवर्मेंट्स को, तो ये सिलसिला निरंतर  चलता रहेगा, लेकिन इसमे, अब मेरे को कल मुझको किसी ने एक वॉट्सऐप मैसेज दिया, और वॉट्सऐप पर तो बहुत सारी भ्रांतियां फैल रही हैं, उसपे हर एक पर आप विश्वास ना करें, कोई एक एडवोकेट मुंबई में, 10-11 मिनट का भाषण मैने फ्लाइट में पढा, सुना उनका,  I tell you ridiculous thing, मतलब एक आदमी जो एक्सपर्ट के नाते वहां जा रहा है , इतना ridiculous भाषण देना, इतनी गलत चीजें बताना, मैं तो हैरान हो गया, तो ऐसी परिस्थिति में आप प्लीज, ऑफिशियल सोर्सेज और अभी एडवर्टाइजमेंट में हम बहुत सारी इंफॉर्मेशन सबके समक्ष रख रहे हैं, तो मेहरबानी करके ऑफिशियल सोर्सेज और ऑफिशियल वेबसाइट पर FAQs हैं, प्रश्न उत्तर हैं, सब कुछ एवलेबल है, उसके ऊपर विश्वास करके आप आगे की अपनी जीएसटी की तैयारी करें,

 

बहुत बहुत धन्यवाद

 

Q&A.

Panelist: Hello and a warm welcome.

The Indian economy is just about recovering from demonetization and the one concern people across the country have is how ready are we for the GST ? It is supposed to be the one single biggest transformational act since independence possibly. Will it have a positive impact in the economy? How much disruption will it cause in the short term?

Joining us to discuss this at the GST Town Hall in Mumbai is Union Power Minister, Piyush Goyal, he’s is one of the key architects in helping the government put this GST mechanism in place. We are also joined by various players who are looking at the GST very-very carefully, representatives of different trade associations here in Mumbai. So, welcome to all of you. Minister, welcome to the GST Town Hall.

A: Thank You

Q: I want to begin by asking you Mr Goyal about how prepared you believe we are? Because, as I speak to people here, as I speak to people else, the one parallel that is drawn often is demonetization, now demonetization was a grenade flung suddenly and out of the blue. Here there is a certain amount of preparation, people know what to expect? Is it even correct to draw this parallel? How prepared are we?

A: Rahul, first of all, let me clarify, demonetization was neither a grenade nor thrown out of the blue. It was discussed in great detail between Reserve Bank of India and the government. It was found to be in the interests of the nation for curbing black money and corruption and as events since then have shown, the people of India have welcomed demonetization. They have borne a little bit of difficulty happily, trusting that this Prime Minister and this government mean good for India. As far as GST is concerned, this has been in the making for the last 14 years. Literally, 14 साल के वनवास के बाद आज इस देश को भगवान राम वापिस मिल रहे हैं |

The idea was first mooted when Mr Vajpayee was Prime Minister. Thereafter, the Congress government in 2007, in one of the budget speeches, proposed to find a solution to this new way of taxes. Around 2011, a law was introduced. Unfortunately, national consensus couldn’t be built around that law, largely, because the framework in which it was sought to be brought in, and the fact that the compensation to states for reducing the rate of CST – the Central Sales Tax, was not being paid in time, so states were hesitant to get involved in the GST story. After Prime Minister Modi took charge of the government; Prime Minister Modi engaged with all stakeholders, every state, their administration, trade associations, people of India. And, after three painstaking years of effort, and I promise you, probably, millions of man-hours have gone into make this happen. So, it’s not something which is not founded or deeply rooted in a lot of preparation.

The country is prepared, trade, business. The people of India are welcoming it across the country. It’s like swimming. Howsoever much one may prepare, end of the day, you have got to jump into the water to learn to swim. You can’t stand on the shore and learn all the movements and say now I am prepared to jump into the water and swim. Obviously, there will be certain issues, which will keep coming up. It’s a nation of a billion people, thousands of trades, millions of businessmen and traders and manufacturers, as things evolve things will get sorted.

Q: I have some examples of what happened when the GST was introduced in other country, far less complex than the Indian economy. In Canada, retailers put up placards saying, ‘don’t blame me for the GST.’ This is when there were huge cash registers….. whose vending machine melt down. In Malaysia, when GST was imposed in April 2015, there were reports that cash registers weren’t calibrated to deal with the new regime.

In South Korea, when this was introduced as a value added tax in 1977, it became a big game of hide and seek between tax officials implementing the new system and market vendors seeking to avoid taxation. I can go on. I am asking you, essentially, what is the government’s contingency in terms of dealing with some of these consequences because there will clearly be problems.

A: Well, two things here. First of all, you have once again demonstrated why you are one of my favourite journalists. You really come well prepared and, you know, I love engaging with people who research and come for the interview. But, more importantly, I think the difference between them and us are two.

One, for the first time in Independent India, we have a move which has universal acceptance across the political spectrum in the country. So, every political party, even if they are not in government in any one of the states, even if they lost every Lok Sabha Assembly election, but even if they may only have a presence in Rajya Sabha. So, in some sense, there has never been such a massive transformational reform in 70 years of Indian independence with unanimity across the country. So, I have yet to hear, people may have concern मेरा रेट कम है ज्यादा है network तैयार है नहीं है, वगैरा वगैरा, but there is yet to be one person who can stand up and oppose GST, because that’s the kind of universal consultation, absorbing everybody’s ideas that has gone into it.

The second big difference in Indian context is that the people of India trust that this is good for them. This is for the first time that people have understood and appreciated that what is being done is ultimately good for us, after all, why did people support demonetization in such a big way, irrespective of what certain journalists or certain opposition parties may have tried to whip up passions and try and make people oppose. Still, you found 90% of the country stand solidly behind Prime Minister Modi, because people trusted that this was good for their future, their children’s future, the nation’s future. That’s why India has far more resilience and the people of India are far more engaged in this whole process. So, glitches will come. I promise you, there will be glitches and maybe that will be the headline that you may show on your channel, but the reality is the people and the government will work together to overcome this.

Q: The idea behind GST is that there will be a one nation, one tax. One of the economic criticisms of GST has been that even though this is one nation, it is not one tax, given the various categories that have been introduced, people are wondering is this. because, for example, products like petroleum, alcohol that contribute about 40% of state revenue are outside the purview of the GST totally. So, who is this one nation, one tax?

A: Very good question and gives me an opportunity to set the context. If you recall when VAT was introduced, all the states didn’t come on board on day one. But, finally we decided to introduce it and once the benefits of that came on the table, all the other states even much faster than expected joined in the VAT framework when MODVAT was given for all the input taxes and you only paying tax on the value add. Similarly, it’s a new thing of massive dimensions and every decision is with 100% consensus. There has never been a dissent in the GST Council. That has been the depth leadership of Prime Minister Modi and Mr Jaitley. And, which is why I often say, this is a collective success of the entire country. It is not Mr Modi’s success, it’s not BJP’s success, it is Team India’s success, because everybody has unanimously agreed. Now, unanimity couldn’t be brought on petroleum and alcohol being brought in and electricity. Should we then keep arguing and fighting and not bring any good in the nation or should we say, ok, alcohol, petroleum are parked for the moment. Let’s bring in good for a larger part of the economy.

The 40% you say is, probably, in terms of value but if you see in terms of economic activity and transactions, they don’t constitute a very significant portion of the volume of transactions and the corruption scope there is much less. Black marketing scope is relatively to the extent you can put a, you know, pollute the petrol, corrupt the petrol with mixing of some kerosene and stuff like that. But, on a day to day basis, petroleum is imported, government imports sold by a bill. So you can’t have leakages in the system. Once the benefits become evident, my own suspicion is states will themselves put pressure that let’s bring petroleum, let’s bring alcohol but we need a national consensus on that.

The second question is even more interesting, and that actually to me shows the bankruptcy of some of the economists and some of the critics of GST in its present form. I used to oppose GST, because I was worried that there will be only one tax rate. In a nation like India, where there is still a large segment of people who are still making two ends meet. There is still a large middle class and a small section which is rich.

How can a BMW car be taxed at the same rate as a रबड़ की चप्पल ? How can a Mercedes car or a product which is a fancy 80 inch, 100 inch LED screen be taxed at the same rate as food stuff ? Specially, when a large part of the people of India, major portion of their family budget goes to buy food stuffs, very clearly, you need to differentiate between luxury goods, sin goods, essential goods and normal goods. And, plus the current system of taxation had many more rates, what we have tried to do is put them in the nearest bucket. So, there is a zero rate for food stuff and stuff like that, there is a 5% for essentials like solar panels, you want to promote renewable energy. It’s good for the world, good for India, good for the people of India and their health. There is a 12% rate for goods which merit some considerations need not be at the normal 18%. Then there is a normal 18%.

And, the advantage with having different rates is, we have been able to fit every item at the nearest slab so that the loss or gain is very nominal. People don’t feel a stress that zero has become 18 or zero has become 12.

Q: On the one side, you have got government Ministers, Secretaries, I spoke to Hasmukh Adhia, he said, don’t worry, prices are not going to go up. On the other hand, customers, and I will give you a personal example. I received a call from a builder who is supposed to deliver an apartment to me in October saying that if you pay before the 1^st July, you will not have to pay 12.5% of tax, which you would have to if you pay after the 1^st of July. Now, I researched, I read up, there are statements from Venkaiah Naidu, your colleague, there are statements from Hasmukh Adhia, from Arun Jaitley, which say that builders are getting input credit and, therefore, they don’t need to charge customers extra. However, on the ground, not just me, I may be slightly better researched than some other people but lots of customers are getting calls saying pay before the 1^st July or you will be charged extra.
A: Which is the advantage of a Town Hall like the one you have organized today, and I am grateful to you for that. It gives us an opportunity to tell the consumers of India that anybody who does not pass on this input credit can actually be hauled up under the anti-profiteering provisions that we have provided in GST. So, I would appeal to you to please run a mission, run a campaign to educate customers that if anybody tries to pass on the GST on any consumer and does not give the benefit of input credit.

Q: No, but I spoke to the builder and I will give you his side of the story. He said that your apartment is virtually near completion, all the input that was to go into the construction of your tower has already been consumed so I will get no input credits. So, I will have to, on the day of completion, charge that 12.5% to you even though I get no input credit. He said, the government is confused, they don’t know what they are talking about. There is no option. You will have to pay tax, आपको तो देना ही पड़ेगा, आप देखलो अभी देना है कि बाद में देना है
A: There is a transitional period, in the transitional period we recognize that there will be certain issues, any game changing reform like GST will always have certain transitional issues. As they come along they can get resolved. For example, the issue, first it was decided that considering that there would have been an excise paid good that would already be there with certain retailers where he may not have, if he has proof of what tax is paid on his inputs, we have allowed him to take credit when he sells the goods. If there is a good on which he doesn’t have proof exactly how much excise is paid or tax is paid, we had introduced 40% of the sale value as an input credit. After representations from various trade associations, we have increased that now to 60%. So, if there is a product on which the excise papers are not available, with a trader for example, a shopkeeper, knowing and his product falls in the range of, let’s say 18%. So, on 9%, which is the central GST, he will be allowed a 60% input credit when he pays the tax.

So, we have thought through the transitional period. There may be specific instances on which when the issues come up, the GST Council can take a view on that. Bear in mind Rahul, this is not about what we in the government of India or Delhi or Finance Minister Jaitley decide, we have actually given up our powers on all of these decisions to the GST Council, which comprises 28 Chief Ministers and their Finance Ministers of each state, the 7 Union Territories, each one an independent person protecting the interests of his revenue and his state’s trade and business.

So, the beauty of this system is that consensus prevails and final decisions are taken by consensus, जिसको हिंदी में कहते है ना किसी की भी मनमानी नहीं चलेगी, अब संयुक्त निर्णय लेंगे, सब लोग मिल के देश हित में निर्णय लेंगे और समय के साथ निर्णय की प्रक्रिया और सरल होगी |

Q: As we speak to traders in Mumbai, in Delhi, small, medium size traders, their one concern is about having to file a lot of online forms and they are very-very concerned about it. And we will give you an example of a diagnostic centre, which currently files two service tax returns in a year. Starting September onwards, this service provider says he will have to file 3 returns very month.
A: What is his turnover, by the way?

Q: More than 5 lakhs I assume, obviously.
A: Not 5 lakhs, the minimum is 20 lakhs. And up to 75 lakhs, at least, for manufacturers and traders we have allowed a composition scheme. So, all those who are up to 20 lakhs have to do nothing, they don’t come under GST.

Q: But, can I just complete this? Three returns in a month, and 10^th, 15^th and the 20^th all online, that’s 36 returns in a year. 12 TDS returns plus one annual returns, mathematically speaking, this person who is filing 2 service tax returns will have to file 49. They are concerned about this, how do you respond?
A: Absolutely, and that’s another misinformation that, sadly, is going around in the whole system. I would like to inform you and your viewers that actually, and I say this with authority, I am a Chartered Accountant. I say this with full responsibility. Actually, we have to file no return, the way the GSTN Network has been designed. I am a person who loves to or prides myself in thinking up good ideas but I promise you, to my mind, what has been designed in the GSTN Network is phenomenal. It’s far beyond what the best of people had imagined GSTN to be, and why do I say this, actually no return.
Everyone of us, your diagnostic centre friend included, must be maintaining a sales register. After all, an invoice register we all maintain in our accounts for our tax returns, service tax returns, income tax returns, labour returns. We all keep our sales register. But, we also keep sales register for service tax separately, often for income tax separately, often for sales tax or VAT separately, very often we also have to keep, rather not very often, all of us have to keep a purchase register separately which also we have to enter.

Then we have to compile all this data and make our return.  We make a different return for service tax, make a different return for VAT, make a different return for entry tax in Navi Mumbai, for example, in lieu of Octroi, and we are all the time bogged down with paperwork. What has GSTN done for us? GSTN has created a robust story where all you need to do is enter your purchase invoices honestly and diligently. Moment you have entered your purchase invoices, your one return gets sorted out which is just an entry of your sales invoices, only your sales invoice. Your sales invoice becomes the purchase invoice of somebody else, and his purchase register or purchase return is automatically populated from my sales. Let me complete.

Once that purchase register gets populated, so, by the 10^th I file my sales register, which is just a compilation of my sales invoices which we had to do in any case, everybody had to do whether monthly or quarterly or whatever. 10^th to 15^th, the person who gets this as his purchase register can verify and for which also we are creating a software, which will do the matching automatically. If anything is not entered he can call up the fellow from whom he had purchased कि तुमने sales invoice नहीं डाला है मेरे यहाँ पर आया नहीं है |

If he still doesn’t enter, he can enter his purchase invoice, it will pop up as a sale of the person who had not entered the sale invoice. So, really we are plugging all the loopholes and the leakages of the illegal transactions and the purchase register gets auto-populated. Nobody has to prepare a new purchase register now, that’s his second return. And the third is the matching of all your input credits and all your sales debits which you have to pay which the computer programme does automatically and drives out a figure which you have to pay as your tax.

So, effectively, and it may take a few weeks or few months for people to get used to writing the GSTN No. correctly, the name of the party correctly, enter all their sales invoice, some people who are too used to the informal economy will have to get used to the fact that अब कुछ छुप नहीं सकता |

Q: But, that’s the point I wanted to make. The reality of the Indian economy is most people don’t maintain these comprehensive registers that you as a chartered accountant speak about. A lot of the transactions, especially, pre-demonetization were all in cash, a lot of the traders told me…….
A: So, are you in any way holding a brief for illegal transactions?

Q: No, no, I think it’s a fantastic idea. But, then there are realistic concerns and these people, I am sure, come to you………….
A: So, anybody who doesn’t report his sales is not a genuine concern. He wants to cheat. He wants to evade taxes. So, would you Rahul Kanwal, sitting on the Aaj Tak or India Today platform wish that the government create avenues for people to cheat on taxes? Not at all. Thank you.

Q: Absolutely, so how much of the informal black economy which so far isn’t built, do you see getting added to the formal economy?
A: That is the reason I became a big fan of the GSTN Network as it has been created. It’s so nice, that really it leaves very little scope for anybody to be able to cheat on taxes now. For all these years, and I have been in business and industry for so many years before I became a Minister, I found the competition used to be so unfair that if two people cheated on taxes, the other 8 who paid their taxes honestly would have to suffer because the people who did not pay their tax were more competitive in price. The honest man had either to join them or lose his business.

Q: Is it at all possible to calculate how much of this informal black economy……
A: My sense is it will be near impossible. There is an infinity, you know, nobody can talk of 100%. It’s like that difference between less cash and cashless. But, to my mind, it will become near impossible because all data from all sources getting captured in one platform. So, even if, let’s say in the old days somebody was not paying his taxes honestly, he would not enter his sales invoice. But, somebody somewhere will enter a purchase invoice.

Q: But you saw what happened Minister with demonetization, people found, we carried a series of 10 exposes called the Jugaad mechanics, showing how different people were trying to short-circuit the system. The one thing that comes to mind immediately is given that you got a cap above the GST comes into place, people can say we are very small traders. We are so small that we don’t come under this….
A: Fair enough. So, nobody will get the credit on their goods. If they do not enter, pay their taxes nobody will get the credit on their goods. So, what will people do. After all, they want to show that purchase, right? Suppose, I am a large trader, you are a small trader. You don’t enter it and you are trying to hide even though you are above 75 lakhs and you sell your goods to me. Now, in my income tax, I have to show this as a purchase. Am I right? Assuming I am not getting credit, at least, in income tax I will have to show it as a purchase. So, I will enter your purchase invoice, I will pay tax on it and on a reverse charge I will get a credit for it. For me it’s a zero sum game. I pay the tax and get credit. But, in the process, I would have shown that I have purchased goods from you. Like that, whoever you sell to will all want to enjoy income tax returns and all, take that debit of the cost, and the computer system will then red flag – hey, here’s the name, Rahul Kanwal, his purchases by other people total to more than 75 lakhs. And you will not be…

Q: The fact is indeed the big promise that the GST has, there are lot of the Indian black informal economy will now come in under its purview. We take a quick break, we return to the GST Town Hall in Mumbai on the other side. Stay with us.

Welcome back, you are watching the India Today GST Town Hall. We are in Mumbai. We have got Piyush Goyal with us. And, we have got a whole bunch of representatives of different trader associations here in Mumbai and the Minister will now be taking some questions.

Q&A

Q: Good afternoon sir, my name is Mohit Chaturvedi, I represent a Chartered accountancy firm, one of the oldest in India. What I wanted to ask was, GST has been built as one of the dream reforms of Narendra Modi ji. There is lot of myths around GST, needed some clarity, important one being, it will give rise to corruption and Inspector Raj. Can you clarify a little bit on the transparency aspect and bust that myth sir?
A: Mr Chaturvedi, the one myth that you need to be clarified and which you just mentioned is that it’s a dream project of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. We would have loved that if we could have done this on our own and taken the whole credit but the reality is not so. The reality is this is one credit and dream of every Indian. It is a dream which is being fulfilled by every political party working in consort, so you have even two communists governments supporting it full-fledged. You have governments who are very inimical to the BJP or NDA supporting it. So, really it would be very unfair on my part, though otherwise I would have loved to take this credit on my own. But the reality is it’s a combined effort of the entire political establishment because it effects and will give a better quality of life for 125 crore Indians. And, as regards transparency and corruption, on the contrary, this is going to eliminate corruption. It’s the best way to be transparent that if the whole country only enters their sales invoices, I am again repeating, there is no returns, no 37 returns, nothing. Enter your sales invoice, sleep peacefully at night.

Q: Myself Balmalkeet Singh, Chairman Core Committee, All India Motor Transport, which is the Apex body for the truckers. And we are very, road transport sector is very optimistic about the GST, because the reason is that today, our vehicle move around 280 kms per day due to the frequent check overs in the state check post. And we are hopeful that after GST, the state check post will be abolished, so our vehicle can be making around 480 to 500 km per day. So, Mantri ji has stated that they have the robust system GSTN so we also want to know that whether we have to carry the invoices which on the manual, whether there will be frequent check over, जैसे नाका बंदी करके बार बार जगह पर गाड़ी रोकी जाती है, उसे harass किया जाता है और state check post हैं जो भ्रष्ट्राचार के बड़े कारण हैं, और सरकार का उद्देश्य यह है कि भ्रष्ट्राचार बंद होना चाहिए?

Rahul: That’s a very good question Minister, because the doing away of the state check posts, the nakaas, who are supposed to be the one most visible manifestation of GST. All reports emerging now seem to suggest that because the e-way bill is not finalized, there is some lack of consensus. This won’t happen on the 1^st of July, taking away one of the biggest visible advantages of the GST?
A:  Well, because the GST Council is still deciding on the exact formats, the process will take some time. But, I just want to know that if we are looking at some change and a transformational change as this, suppose one aspect of that happens 10 days later, 15 days later, does it kill the whole process, kill the whole concept?

Q: So, you think the delay will only be 10-15 days or could be longer?
A: Let it be longer, यह तो 70 साल के delay के बाद देश में परिवर्तन आ रहा है, जिस देश ने 70 साल धीरज रखा और सब्र रखा तो थोड़े दिन और देख लेंगे | लेकिन, the good part then, I will also like to inform. I have run industry, excise invoice के बगैर तो कोई truck में माल जा ही नहीं सकता था पहले भी, तो आज भी अगर e-way bill साथ में जाये goods के तो अच्छा ही हैना नंबर 2 का धंधा पकड़ में आएगा, बंद होगा | अगर सब transporters हमारा सहयोग करें और खुद निर्णय करें हम बिना proper invoice के हम आगे जायेंगे ही नहीं और maybe, I am thinking aloud क्योंकि यह प्रश्न उठा है, I have not thought of it. समझो हम यह कर दें कि हर transporter को भी GSTN में ले लें तो जो sales invoice वह ट्रक में carry कर रहा है वह enter कर दे तो अगर कोई check post भी है तो it can be an electronic check post. From there, it will take the truck number and electronically………….

Q: But, the idea was to do away with those check posts?
A: There won’t be any check posts. It will be an electronic check post.

Q: हमारा यही मानना है कि यदि सारा कुछ online system में है, हमारा एक ही reservation है कि हमें रास्तों पर तंग नहीं किया जाये, 70 बरस से हो रहा है?
A: मैं शत-प्रतिशत आपके साथ मानता हूँ और यही उद्देश्य है GST का, इसके लिए GST Council ने e-way को अभी तक लागू नहीं किया है, इसको suspend किया हुआ है और चर्चा कर रहा है कि कैसा सिस्टम बनाया जाए जिससे check post भी न हो लेकिन भ्रष्ट्राचार और नंबर 2 का धंधा भी रोकने का साधन बन सके | So, they are still evolving a technological solution to the problem. Give it some more time.

Q: सर मेरी गाड़ी अगर 500 किलोमीटर करती है तो logistical cost भी कहीं न कहीं तो होगा?
A: Exactly, exactly, और आपका भ्रष्ट्राचार का मुसीबत भी ख़त्म होगा |

Q: I am Uttam Bagri, I am the Chairman of the Bombay Stock Exchange Brokers Forum. Stock Market is not just the prices also lots of businesses, there are lots of businesses which run, we are probably first to come under service tax. The law is fine. They will implement it, in fact, stock brokers and other …. have better systems compared to most of the businesses. But there are many questions that they keep on asking ourselves is that clarity नहीं है. For example, definition of agent, अब मेरा सबलोग का मेरा एजेंट है कि नहीं, these are the questions that we, एक consultant से पूछो कुछ और बोलता है, दूसरा कुछ और बोलता है, कुछ लोग बोलता है STT के ऊपर भी GST लगेगा?
A: तो आप consultant को क्यों पूछते हो, department को पूछो ना? हमारा इतना robust department है यहाँ पर, इतने अच्छे लोग हैं हमारे साथ यहाँ बैठे हुए हैं, महिंद्रा जी, आप इन लोगों को पूछिए आप इधर-उधर क्यों धक्के खा रहे हैं, association आपके सब सवाल उठाले और एक बार इनको invite करे, हमारे अधिकारियों ने आपकी जानकारी के लिए, हमारी मतलब केंद्र ने, राज्य और केंद्र के मिलके एक हफ्ते पहले तक 4,527 workshops की थी अलग अलग association के साथ देश भर में, chartered accountants ने 200 help desks शुरू किये हैं देश भर में जो मुफ्त में छोटे व्यापारियों को, manufacturers को मुफ्त में handhold कर रहे हैं registration करने में, handhold करेंगे पहले 2-3 महीने records रखने में, department ने मुफ्त में software दिया है कि आप उस software में offline सिर्फ sales invoice enter करो, internet की भी ज़रूरत नहीं है, महीने में एक बार एक call centre में जा के 10 minute में वह upload हो जायेगा, 3 minute में upload हो जायेगा |

Q: Does that software give you some…. The fact that it can supposedly take 3.5 billion transactions a month, it’s a software that hasn’t been tested with any serious load.
A: It has already been tested, the beta testing has been done, another round of testing we are planning to do in the next few days. But Rahul, वही बात हो गयी पानी में कूदोगे नहीं तो तैरना नहीं सीखोगे, आप बाहर बैठे हुए जितना भी simulations and butterfly stroke कर लो, फलाना ढिमका, पानी में कूदे बगैर आप swimming नहीं सीख सकते | तो एक बार इस देश को पहली जुलाई को GST को शुरू करना पड़ेगा उसमें जो जो विषय आयेंगे तो हम तो किधर भाग के तो नहीं जा रहे हैं, आपके state की machinery है | इसमें तो सबसे बड़ा advantage यह है कि दोनों centre और state सब मिलके काम कर रहे हैं तो आपके पास तो गाली गली में लोग होंगे जो आपको guide करने के लिए, और कुछ genuine चीज़ें आएँगी तो हम भी तो आपके ही है ना, आपने ही चुन के हमें भेजा है, राज्य सरकारों को भी आपने ही चुन के भेजा है | तो मिल बैठके राज्य सरकार, केंद्र सरकार, GST Council solutions भी निकालेंगे |

Q: My name is Manohar Vagley, I head the Maharashtra Sports and Fitness Trade Association. Now, what I am going to ask today sir is something which concerns everyone in this room because all of you have children, grandchildren who need to play. We are trying to encourage sports, we want people to come out and play sports. We welcome your GST sir, GST is good, it’s giving a level playing field, I appreciate all of that. But, can you please explain to me that when the Finance Minister had said that 28% will be levied on luxury goods and on sin goods. How some of our products have been pushed up? Athletics, which is an Olympic event; Gymnastics, Olympic event, we want people to go out and win medals?
A: Very good point. Bear in mind, first of all, Finance Minister alone cannot decide any move, it’s the GST Council all the Finance Minister have to unanimously agree. But the rule that the GST Council agreed on was that whatever is the existing rate on any product, sadly, if the existing rate of your product was close to 28% when you combine the excise duty, the sales tax, the VAT, the Octroi or entry duty and all of that. In case, the rate comes close to 28 then it will get into the 28 bracket, if it comes on 18 it will get into the 18 bracket. So we have tried that the benefit or the loss to any particular product or sector is the minimum, existing rates are maintained. And, over a period of time as revenue collection goes up…..

Rahul: Minister, we have had a very engaging session here, just looking at the level of engagement, the kind of questions it’s very clear we are going to jump into that pool. Now, let’s see how quickly we can learn how to swim.

Thank you so much for joining us at the India Today GST Town Hall in Mumbai.